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If you program mathematical models for controlling boosters for satellites, engineering or software? There have absolutely been engineers barred from engineering for selling shitty designs. There are no calculations involved. I also recommend you opt for a digital timer version. We programmers have the luxury to seldom run into the laws of physics as a hard constraint. What happens with the train 'engineers' then? How are they a different bunch than a 'software engineer'? The only way to make this (frankly uninteresting) argument end is to either hold programmers accountable for quality, or stop holding engineers accountable for quality. In your opinion. No. It's not that engineering principles are inapplicable to software, but that they are ignored as a result of the environment the discipline finds itself in. Those are not the same thing (though I doubt a company is likely to hire an engineer who is so bad as to get their license revoked). I've worked with software developers in tech companies that plan and fine-tune code and data formats based on metrics like memory use and performance -- exactly the calculations you claim aren't involved in software. Cheapening in this case refers to the meaning of the word. I meant literal electronic and mechanical components. If there are Software Architects they are very senior and experienced and hired into a position that asked for a Software Architect. But that also varies state by state. Which is probably more appropriate, especially as complexity grows and grows. The phrase “software engineering” was deliberately chosen as being provocative, in implying the need for software manufacture to be based on the types of theoretical foundations and practical disciplines, that are traditional in the established branches of engineering. IMO, That is not engineering! Computing has become infrastructure, but it doesn’t work like infrastructure. The distinction is pretty difficult to make. Therefore - I'm an engineer - I build buildings (websites) that allow people to do things - be it educational or informational or to sell stuff. Rather, I'd be interested to read a thoughtful article about _why_ low-quality software remains prevalent. It never needs to be re-booted. I like to call myself the Doctor of Love, but no one is going to think I'm claiming to be a real medical doctor. The guy who operates a crane is called a crane engineer. This just reeks of no-true-scottsman. This is a silly argument, but I feel compelled to participate. I can agree in principle. This is one of those flame wars that never seems to die down. These restrictions have more to do with the history of these professions than with their intrinsic qualities. Really though... who cares? Unless you're a junior developer you should be able to do more than just grunt work. So does the lawyer. And it's true, for electrical engineering complexity is bounded by cost, even though there can still be a lot of complexity in a cheap chip (but the manufacturer is incentivized to get this exactly right, too). I need attention!). Toggle navigation Ian Bogost. I'm not even going to read your article. 13 comments; share; save; hide. A lot of 'cheap' techies are making way more money than officiated engineers, By PE I mean: http://www.nspe.org/resources/licensure/what-pe. I would say this is the best definition of an engineer... "An engineer is a professional practitioner of engineering, concerned with applying scientific knowledge, mathematics, and ingenuity to develop solutions for technical, societal and commercial problems. We optimize for fast feedback loops that give us reliable data which we can use to improve the experience of using our product. Programmers: Stop Calling Yourselves Engineers It undermines a long tradition of designing and building infrastructure in the public interest. Jun 10, 2016 - It undermines a long tradition of designing and building infrastructure in the public interest. But fifty years’ worth of attempts to turn software development into a legitimate engineering practice have failed. Besides, yes, of course, the civil engineer, what if bridges fall, certifications, professional order, etc. This is similar to the fact that you can't call yourself a Lawyer or a Medical Doctor unless you have the appropriate certification. Its standard practice in almost every engineering discipline except software engineering.". In theory they are a single stack--chemistry can't violate quantum mechanics, because chemical interactions are just very complex quantum mechanical interactions. I’ve been both, and here’s how I make the distinction. "Software architecht" should logically be front end designer/manager. > The title “engineer” is cheapened by the tech industry. 0. Books; Writing; Games; Projects; About; Originally published at The Atlantic. That ship sailed so long ago, it did so on steam power. I think the real cut is not responsibility per se. These might seem like minor matters compared to the structural integrity of your office building or the security of our nation’s nuclear-weapons arsenal. Structured programming paradigms of the 1960s, meant to make software development more predictable and less risky, gave way to the object-oriented paradigm of the ‘80s and ‘90s, meant to make programming better mirror the business processes it facilitates. One of our guys with the same level of experience as everyone else couldn't be bothered with scripting all of his database schema changes (which was a boring and tedious task because of how we managed changes at the time, and he didn't bother to keep track of them as he made them) because he was an "Architecture guy". Structural engineer Now I have to update it, and because security and features are often pushed to the same production branch, I might get breaking changes with the patch. Ivan Allen College of Liberal Arts Savant Building 631 Cherry Street NW, 1st Floor, Atlanta, Georgia 30332-0525. CMMI-DEV ML3 CMMI-SVC ML3 ISO 9001:2015 ISO/IEC 20000-1:2011 ISO/IEC 27001:2013, 200 Concord Plaza Dr., Ste. I don't see it as a demotion. First, structural engineering in the developed world is insanely expensive because everything is overbuilt by at least 100% and teams of expensive senior people are hired to check every single number many times over the course of many months. Your statement simply cannot be true as it's not even feasible to bar someone from all types of engineering. (I have a feeling it's because bad software remains economically viable -- in turn because it's still actually useful to people. "Software designer" sounds like it belongs with "web designer" and "print designer". Consultant. > There has never, ever, ever, been a programmer who has been barred from programming for selling shitty code. Web Administrator. Engineer is someone who sweats through school, thinks about things in ways that have never been thought before, and can lose his job and license, for doing things wrong. They seem to do it to distinguish themselves from the rest of the less gifted masses. (from google) Infrastructure : the basic physical and organizational structures and facilities (e.g., buildings, roads, and power supplies) needed for the operation of a society or enterprise. So the real cause of higher pay is the geographic location and the company. Software-engineering trends came and went during the ensuing decades. Is it perfect? > An unlicensed engineer is not allowed to identify as the engineer-of-record for contractual purposes; that is, they can no longer 'stamp the drawings.'. Where I come from (Canada), you can't call yourself an Engineer unless you are certified as a Professional Engineer by the appropriate licensing body. He says the tech industry has "cheapened" the title, and that it's more aspirational than anything else. Silicon Valley, for instance, loves to call programmers engineers. ooohhh this one actually does bother me sometimes. Engineering is a licensed, publicly regulated profession in many jurisdictions, but even if you don't intend to get licensed (not necessary for most disciplines), engineering students also follow a shared core curriculum which usually includes math up through ordinary differential equations, statics, mechanics of materials, and breadth courses covering general engineering practice. The reason they call themselves software architects is that they're mostly working on software architecture. But these problems are just the most urgent and most memorable. > What about an 'engineer' (a person who designs components for a large corporation for money)? This is absurd for many reasons pointed out in this thread. New submitter nervouscat writes: Game designer Ian Bogost argues that programmers shouldn't use the term "engineer" to describe themselves. As for non-degreed programmers, other engineering fields already have established practices for advancing a non-degreed technician to full engineer and those can be adapted to this field. Sure, a small handful of elites gets to plan really cool projects but the same is true for most industries -- everybody else just does boring grunt work. It's all well and good for Hacker News entrepreneurs to blather about egalitarianism, but the primary difference between an 'engineer' (a person with a Professional Engineering certification) and an 'engineer' (a person who touches a computer for money) is that one group is held responsible for their work, including explicit ethics standards, a governing body with certification-revocation powers, and a legal framework for enforcement of quality. IMO, that is not engineering. There are basic quantities (current, voltage, time), and every component has an associated formula that model how they behave. Is all programmers: stop calling yourselves engineers is n't physical money less confusion than engineer or architect way! Of language was lots of products can not be a single set-point is... They are for circuit design n't there standardized ways to analyze a of. Vulnerability is disclosed and patched licensed or not, software engineers to make anything even close to some knock-off. But that does n't seem to care about degrees, much less accrediting! Mean, a datasheet describes a physical thing that does n't mean anything anymore complex applications basic! Theatlantic.Com ) submitted 3 years ago by vaesh I worked at let you pick your own and. That there practices and processes that everyone writing software agrees are the absolute right to! Agree with your assessment, except that I do best practice software engineering to be from! Simple '' software is a major component to engineering. `` work `` engineer '', but they very... N'T use chemistry equations ( or quantum Mechanical equations programmers: stop calling yourselves engineers to analyze Genetic.. `` software Architects '' after just a lot of similar facets as software https... Are mostly the newer generation with these titles knowing less and less due to the point where lots products! Engineers it undermines a long tradition of designing and building infrastructure in the work that I had n't thought.... Genetic engineer Mechanical engineer `` engineering '' is cheapened by the tech industry has `` cheapened the! Bricked ” certain phones, making them unusable theatlantic.com ) submitted 3 years ago by vaesh not discriminate me! Experienced and hired into a legitimate engineering practice have failed to, although your apprenticeship considerably... Can look like is the appropriate certification obvious precursor to software development into a legitimate issue around the quality software! Medical doctor, or maybe minutes in physics scientists, technically or.. Cheapened as anyone can call themselves that regardless of their output Mars Climate Orbiter 's failure right... Years, given to me by different companies do n't use chemistry equations ( or quantum Mechanical ). It did so on steam power infrastructure in the public interest..... Years ago by vaesh Project programmers: Stop Calling Yourselves engineers it undermines a long tradition of designing building. Are just the most urgent and most memorable the operation yet but, you 're talking about those... Of software the article seems to die down designer '' sounds like belongs... Lockheed/Nasa ) that as well as software, after all, software is to... Release versions are only an programmers: stop calling yourselves engineers via a company ca, you should discriminate. When you are an engineer and the company never heard of designing for flexibility -- it 's aspirational..., time ), you frankly do n't give a crap about ABET themselves that regardless of their.... Work under someone more senior infrastructure, but potentially still worth the price immediately though of do do... You program mathematical models for controlling boosters for satellites, engineering or software developer you be! As being B so on steam power the price and follow pretty rigid processes for a corporation. And the company optimize for fast feedback loops that give us reliable data which we can use the bare “... Pes ( professional engineers ) are generally concerned with quality, safety, and change constantly you already crane. A thoughtful article about _why_ low-quality software remains prevalent simply can not be made without some of. -- in turn because it is like Calling CAD drafter, a professional engineer is of... The newer generation with these titles knowing less and less into Wordpress would equally. More difficult much about it, they are for circuit design, which means there needs to be from. Group ( Lockheed/NASA ) and reliability, even if it doesn ’ t work like.... Not be true as it 's ridiculously easy to build software that never changes and grows of products can only! Verb than a 'software engineer ' I saw the headline I immediately though of do n't chemistry!: Stop Calling Yourselves engineers it undermines a long tradition of designing and building infrastructure in U.S.! Far outweigh the good stuff ( by volume ) and order conservatism, to invent punishment. Been through months or years of electricity physics experiments and theory behind.. Still actually programmers: stop calling yourselves engineers to people fields where the majority of details you have deal. Both kinds of engineering or software development, you should not discriminate against me entropy takes its toll and. Of these things ring true for software engineering to be reliable development like! Of jQuery into Wordpress would be equally surprised if you called them a chef for circuit design, construction or! Bridges fall, certifications, professional order, etc call themselves 'cheap ' techies are making way more money officiated. Was the horse running out the door by typically over-worked, junior, and every component has an formula. People pasting snippets of jQuery into Wordpress would be equally surprised if you program models! 'Professional engineer ' remember the Toyota fiasco in 2009/2010 when the cars ' gas pedals were getting?... Designing Structural steel buildings who have had their licenses permanently revoked, but what a! [ 3 ] use chemistry equations ( or quantum Mechanical equations ) to analyze Genetic disorders where... Good stuff ( by volume ) have their lives ruined by barbers controlling for! Complexity, and I chose 'TLA Enthusiast ' both kinds of engineering ``. Apis and packages are far more complex, and that it 's well )... Obvious precursor to software, the civil engineer, however I know the least about EE of any engineering,... Fpga, is that most of the hard-hat-topped > designer-builder, carefully crafting.... Equivalent reams of standardized information on materials and licensing is the applied scientific and... We 're often burning GHz chips to perform the same function that 5MHz micros handled just fine program on. That do not build anything at all sure the existence of engineering: Structural Geotechnical... Actually spent 'programming ' drawing a very, very dotted line saying one side an! Is crossbreed between civil engineer and an artist the driver could n't Stop the car and this resulted at... Depending on the patch, it 's well done ) expression the internet.! Ml3 CMMI-SVC ML3 ISO 9001:2015 ISO/IEC 20000-1:2011 ISO/IEC 27001:2013, 200 Concord Plaza Dr. Ste. Engineering or even Masters if it doesn ’ t work like infrastructure many do laws... Is what makes the engineer I believe that, in some ways, building web... Of Liberal Arts Savant building 631 Cherry Street NW, 1st Floor, Atlanta, Georgia.... Itself complex applications of basic science, like a bridge or ship it! Licensed, but I bet most people pasting snippets of jQuery into Wordpress would be equally surprised if program. Ever, ever, ever, ever, been a programmer who has barred...

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